Dr. Michael Socolow, an expert in journalism studies. The discussion focuses on immigration and its portrayal in American media, comparing national and local perspectives, particularly in Maine. Dr. Socolow will also explain the American media landscape, highlighting the interplay between commerce, community needs, and public service.
Dr. Michael Socolow, an expert in journalism studies. The discussion focuses on immigration and its portrayal in American media, comparing national and local perspectives, particularly in Maine. Dr. Socolow will also explain the American media landscape, highlighting the interplay between commerce, community needs, and public service.
In today's political climate, immigration is often a battleground, with opposing sides shouting past each other. Here, at Luke's Two Cents, we believe there's a better conversation to be had. This podcast is your antidote to the noise. We'll be amplifying the voices of immigrants themselves, sharing their journeys, struggles, and triumphs as they build new lives in the United States. Get ready for authentic stories, honest experiences, and a fresh perspective on what it truly means to be an immigrant in the United States of America.
Luc:Greetings from Portland, Maine, I'm Luc Kuanzambi
Welcome everyone and buckle up for a fascinating phone conversation We have the privilege of being joined by Dr. Michael Socolow, An expert in journalism studies. Our discussion, dives straight into the heart of a timely topic, immigration and its portrayal in the American media. We'll be exploring the expert's insight on a fascinating question. How does immigration get covered? We'll be looking at it through a dual lens, examining the national media spotlight. And contrasting it with a local focus. We see here in Maine. But that's not all Dr. Socolow will also be guiding us Through the intricacies of the American media landscape itself. We'll be learning about the unique features. The interplay between commerce community needs and the vital role of public service. So let's just call Let's get started..
Luc:This episode is brought to you by Zeno's Communications Consulting, LLC, the company that facilitates your engagements with immigrant audiences. Stay tuned.
Hello, Mike Socolow. Dr. Socolow, this is Luc. How are you today? Hi good, thanks. Dr. Socolow, pleasure to hear you. And thanks for joining us for the first episode ever of this program. Great! First, I want to start by introductions as I was telling those who are following us right now. on our first episode, we'll have Dr. Michael Socolow. Did I not butcher your name? Is that how it is pronounced? That's correct. Mike Socolow, Michael Socolow. Yes. Thank you so much, Doctor. From the Department of Communication and Journalism at the University of Maine. That's correct. Dr. Socolow teaches journalism advertising, media and society, media ethics, media history, propaganda, and political persuasion, and other courses. We'll be looking closely at how local news in Maine and national media.[Media outlets] tend to cover immigration and frame immigrants. We'll try to delve into things that are specific to your field of specialty. I want you to start by, introducing us to the media landscape both in Maine and America for someone who's coming from outside and who's wet behind the ears and who doesn't know what the media landscape is like in America. How would you describe it? Um, the media landscape in the United States as a country as a whole, it's shaped by the First Amendment, so it tends to be more commercial, community and public oriented than State or governmental oriented in that sense. But that means there's a lot of commercial imperatives, you have to sell a lot of advertising and you have to look at the audience very carefully. In Maine we have one of the oldest and whitest populations in the United States. And so in some ways that makes the media strangely, in some ways it makes the media healthier because, for instance, older people tend to read newspapers more. But it also means that advertisements don't sell for as much because younger audiences are worth more money. So that's a very brief explanation of the general American media situation and the one in Maine. Excellent. And in terms of affiliation, ideological affiliation, I'm assuming there should be another reflection of the left-right political spectrum even in the media landscape. Could you say something about that? Yeah, that exists here in Maine, but not quite as much. The old traditional center politics in Maine is strong, but in the rest of the United States yes the, in general, the commercial media has become much more splintered and fractured politically in order to serve different audiences more clearly. There doesn't seem to be as big a center as there used to be. Now, Doctor, I was tempted to tell you that from my personal view, and it's my humble opinion, that's why I call it"Two Cents,""Luc's Two Cents" I seem to be noticing that most of the media coverage on the right frames immigrants in a counterproductive manner. It portrays them as political fodder overall. And sometimes boogeymen, or just people who are not really welcome in the U. S. That's the sentiment as an immigrant I get from listening to to most of the news coverage coming from the right leaning media outlets. And the left leaning media outlet sometimes speak in favor of immigrants, but because of political calculations, they do not push the narrative far. They do not do enough defense of immigrants, but that's just my reading and it could be biased. I really wanted to hear your feedback regarding that because I didn't want to frame you in a situation where you find yourself in an echo chamber where it becomes just a resounding of the opinion of someone who leans towards immigrants. How do you feel like the local and the national media outlets are framing immigrants? I I think what you said does resonate and make sense. But in terms of the way immigrants are portrayed both nationally and in the State of Maine, I think you have to understand that journalism is a cultural product and for instance in the United States, there's there's political constituencies for people who believe that diversity and immigration are not a strength, and there's also people who sell media who for instance, foreign language media, Spanish language radio is very healthy in the United States right now.
Luc:This episode is brought to you by Zeno's Communications Consulting, LLC, the company that facilitates your engagements with immigrant audiences. Stay tuned.
It's complicated, but yes, I agree that there's a political division in how immigrants are portrayed. In the media and that the conservative Republican and right wing media tends to view immigrants as a social burden that costs taxpayer money and the left and liberal and more democratic media tends to see immigrants as more part of the American cultural heritage of the classic melting pot and diversity. That's interesting. You're a media historian as well, and I wanted to look with you at whether you've observed any major shifts in how immigrants are framed in the media over the years. Has there been any trend, for example, has it been, as hot of a topic in the media as it is right now, opposed to, let's say, 10, 20 years Absolutely. Yes. It comes and goes in waves. And the waves are timed with when America goes through a big immigration wave. For instance, if you look at the American media between 1880 and 1920, when, a tremendously large percentage of the United States, more than a third of every person in America was born outside of the United States, the American media reflected immigration as a massive social issue. In many different ways. And for instance, when the immigration laws went into effect, the restricted immigration laws in 1924, the American newspapers played a huge role in promoting that idea of immigration restriction. And then the wave we're in right now began in 1965 when the immigration laws changed. And and yes, it's the same kind of controversies, whether it's the Mexican border, whether it's framed in terms of national security, whether it's framed in terms of health. In earlier immigration waves they talked about immigrants bringing in diseases, just like they do today. So it's framed in terms of health, it's framed in terms of social costs. It's also framed in terms of race and racism. Just back then the difference was back then, in the 1880s to 1920s, it was, Jews and Southern Italians and Catholics, who were of a different race, or in, in that sense. And today, it's it's everybody else's. So it's, yes, it's very much an American history. The media has played this role in both every time immigration comes up. Now there seems to be contradicting voices on the issues of immigration. For example, if we look back at a few months from now, one side of the political spectrum, especially the Democrats and those who are left leaning were promoting the idea that even with the influx of asylum seekers and immigrants getting into the American territory through the southern border, there should be room to accommodate them. Not that there's any budget or there's any facility for welcoming all these people, but the narrative built mostly, revolved mostly around the idea that America is a nation of immigration and therefore it should not depart from its spirit of welcoming the immigrants. But it took a little bit of pressure coming from the Republican side with gimmicks such as sending busloads of immigrants to places like New York City or Chicago to see a sudden drift from that narrative from the Democratic leaning media outlets and also some of the public officials. Now they're more on, let's say on the more moderate side in terms of that narrative. I wanted to point it out and show that this is just me reacting and seeing how you, as an expert, you can look at it at it uh, there is a little bit of political expediency. A certain narrative is promoted based on political interests. Would you agree I think it's complicated. I, on the one hand, yes, I agree with, There is an attempt to create a political framework or narrative around immigration and discussions of immigration that, sending busloads of immigrants from Texas and Florida up to northern cities is part of that. But it's really a complicated problem involving federalism and involving the way the media does these portrayals. I would argue that what's happening is The media is and I'm saying here the centrist media, not the right wing or the left wing one, but ABC, CBS, CNN, those kinds of places. They're following the political leadership. So for instance, when the mayor of New York holds a press conference and starts talking about it, they report on that in that way. So it's a complicated question. And I agree with you that I do think there is some political stunts going on. There are attempts to influence the media and how the portrayal happens. Absolutely. I want to look at the new environment, media environment, that's prevailing right now, the social media environment. And this is staging a number of challenges, as you certainly will acknowledge, including the fact that access to technology and access to audiences does not guarantee the credibility of the information or statements that are being spread on those platforms. And, unfortunately, immigration related narratives have been pushed on these platforms in a way to, as you indicated previously, frame immigrants in a way that sort of dehumanizes them for the most part. I understand that not everyone on social media is pushing for the idea that immigrants are, let's say, are poisoning the blood of the United States, of the society. Or pushing for ideas such as immigrants are coming from jails of countries like the Congo and being poured by the numbers here in the United States in order to destabilize the country. That's the narrative we find coming from a specific number of political figures and their followers, and therefore it's being ac echoed. Do you feel like with the absence of such a technology as social media as we know it today, maybe the narrative could have been less impactful on the overall culture? That's a great question. I'm not really sure because if we look in American history, the immigration question has been just a massive cultural media issue and social issue. If you look at some of the propositions in California, for example, that they passed under Governor Pete Wilson, and if you look at the way immigration is treated as an election issue by Republicans and Democrats, I'm not really sure that it could be different because it just keeps the same stereotypes keep coming up. But the second part of what you said about social media. I don't really know enough about the social media algorithms and whether, for instance, TikTok or Twitter or Facebook, how they treat immigration. My sense is that they really allow echo chambers and bubbles to form, so all the kind of racist anti immigration stuff. They can use the social media to build their community, but also the pro immigration, the, even the communities themselves, for instance, like I, I happen to know, on on TikTok, there's a lot of video from El Salvadorans and Costa Ricans and others who are coming from Latin America and they're building their own immigrant communities in the social media. To teach to teach each other how to live in America. And so it's really a, it's really both happening at the same time. That's interesting because one thing I've personally noticed is the absence of narratives carried by the immigrants themselves. And I like the observation that there are some communities that tend to be organizing themselves, at least on social media. But we'll certainly agree on the fact that there's quite a vacuum of the voices of immigrants in the mainstream media. Media outlets such as CNN or Fox News do not have a slot allotted to immigrants to give their feedback. I feel like the only time that an outsider's voice or an immigrant voice was emphasized, it was in a satirical manner when Trevor Noah had a platform through the Late Night Show. And unfortunately, with him stepping away from the platform, our perspective as immigrants, and I'm speaking as one seems to have dwindled from the heed of the public the larger public in the United States. Do you feel like there's a need for the rise of, let's say, an immigrant outlet, a major outlet that will be, uh the vessel that will carry the voices of immigrants, is that a good idea or do you feel like it's a little bit of too far? No, I think what you say makes a lot of sense and I think you're absolutely right. I think the voice of the actual immigrant from the immigration debate is missing and I think more could be done with that for sure. But you have several different issues there. So for instance, you have the linguistic issue. Most, I would say many, if not most of the immigrants coming in the last several years probably don't speak English or they don't speak English well enough to participate in the media at the most professional and highest levels. So you have a linguistic issue for starters. Then you have the cultural issue of the way journalism is constructed in America. So for instance, in America, and I'm talking now again about CNN, CBS, ABC, the big companies, not the small media stuff. But there is this concept that who the person's identity is not is not how the journalism should be presented. They the reporter should be unbiased and neutral and independent in a certain way. That's a very much an American cultural construct for how journalism works. So I think that's also holding back an immigrant's voice from appearing in the media. But I also an interesting question would be There's sort of a tension or a conflict between the way the diverse immigrant media works and the larger American one works because, for instance, there's a very healthy and large economic commercial media in the Spanish language in the United States that is run by a lot of immigrants out of Miami, things like Univision and and channels that, that speak to an American culture of people from Hispanic and Latino countries that, that speak Spanish, that would be a tension with the larger English speaking media. I don't know if you're following that idea, but that, the idea is that it's not as though necessarily I agree that the larger English media in the United States needs the immigrant's voice; but I do think immigrant voices are being heard, especially Spanish language. I don't know about other languages, so I don't know about Francophones, for instance, in the United States or any or Chinese, I'm not familiar with those media, but the Spanish language media is very strong and very big and healthy here in the United States. And it does have a lot of immigrants voices heard, but it's not really breaking through to the English white mainstream in certain ways like Trevor Noah. Yes, oh, and that's a good point, doctor, because here locally in Maine, we see some fledgling efforts for the immigrant community to have platforms through which they're expressing themselves. But I feel even with the presence of all news outlets like Amjambo Africa, I'm sorry, which is one of the widespread, newspapers in terms of coverage that you'll find here in southern Maine. I don't know how far north it goes, but I've seen Amjambo Africa spread between places like Saco, Maine and and Brunswick, a little up, up north of Portland. I think those are commendable efforts and those indicate a desire, a willingness for the immigrant community to contribute. But I, I think part of why we're facing challenges, it's because to invest in the realm of media is a little restrictive, not just access to the languages, but also access to sometimes capitals, to be able to develop news outlets that could be viable and that could potentially compete with the rest of those who have been traditionally established as mainstream or main street news outlets. And I believe your observation about, the Latino news outlets in the Florida area, opens our eyes to the need for some of us here up north in Maine to think about how best to develop and maybe revitalize that platform that's available for us. I wanted to go a little further and ask about The political divide between left and right, how it's reflected nationally and locally and with the latest development with someone like Rona, McDaniel, who was the RNC's chair, who stepped down and who joined one of the left leaning news outlets and who ended up losing her new job, only days into her position, I am wondering, with such developments, because people like Rona are Trump leaning. Is there any hope of reconciliation down the road for people spread across the political spectrum? And I'm not talking about politicians, but I'm talking about media outlets, is there any hope to reconcile left leaning with right leaning news outlets someday in America, or do you feel like this is a divorce? We're just headed for a collision course. Yeah, I think the media is reflective of the political environment. So Donald Trump, when he ran for president, he talked about building a wall with Mexico and he made immigration and even some xenophobia and even some racism he made all of that central to his appeal to a certain type of American voter. And immigration was immigration stood for something symbolically that was much larger than than the actual people who are crossing into America and even, the legal immigration for H 1B visas and things like that. I think the media is a reflection of the current political divide, and I think the current political divides are such that immigration can be used as a wedge issue. It can be used as a way to motivate people to vote. It's not a persuasive issue. See, I don't see Democrats going out and making a point of pushing for more immigration. Okay. And that would be a thing. I see a the way it's being used is purely tactical and that's not really healthy for American society. But I do think the media reflects that and I don't see the media coming to some kind of consensus on it nationally. Now here within Maine, we have this pretty big issue, which is that we have the whitest Sstate in America. We are. We have the least diversity. And that causes, that makes it easier for anybody who wants to use immigration as a, as what we call a wedge issue, as an issue to energize their voting base. In a state like California or New York, which has many more immigrants. They can't talk about immigration in the same way. And so that's one place where I see Maine being slightly different than the rest of the United States. But as to your major, as to your major question about whether I think there could be some agreement or consensus on what a healthy immigration policy is, I wish there could be. I hope that, Republicans and Democrats at some point would be able to figure something out. But there doesn't seem to be there doesn't seem to be a center there because both sides are using it to garner more votes. That's a good point, yes. I agree. And it takes leadership, for sure. It's going to take either political leadership or maybe journalistic leadership to get to the point of healing. The news outlets and the media were driving the narrative around immigration. I think even When you're depicting some of the news outlets as being center, leaning and not pushing toward left or right, but just following the leadership and just emphasizing the message that the political leaders are carrying at a certain time. They still have an eternal responsibility for the content that they're carrying on their platforms. And some of them are, unfortunately, helping drive our counterproductive narratives. I don't want to be advocating for the immigrant community right now, but I feel like even not just in the issue of immigration, but on many other issues, on many other political issues, there should be the rise of a new initiative within the media spectrum where people are pushing for a more center based approach where people from both sides of the political spectrum can come to identify to the news outlets and believe that these people are not partial, they're really not leaning for left or right, but they're just trying to do their job as journalists. And that's what I'm hoping that we could find a beam of light of somewhere around the political and media spectrum. I, I agree with what you're saying. I think it would be great if what you're saying could work. And the one thing I would say is that as a cause of optimism or as a way of thinking about it optimistically is that Maine has a history of integrating immigrants effectively. So for instance it isn't that long ago, maybe 50, 60 years ago, there was tremendous discrimination against French Canadian Catholics here in the State of the Ku Klux Klan. The Ku Klux Klan was very big in Maine, and there was employment discrimination, there was linguistic discrimination, the French Catholic Canadians were looked down upon as a different type of people. And what they did very effectively is they built cultural and communal organizations that showed whether they were in commercial, whether they ran supermarkets or restaurants or and Maine politicians, just how much sort of power they had, how their presence in the State and how important they were to the State. And by doing that they effectively were able to move in to jobs in media and they were able to raise their presence much more, at parades and public festivals and public participation. They went to college much more, they became educated and they became much more fully integrated in the last 50 to 60 years. So that's a really good model if for immigrants, if they can build the organizations and the community presence to be so that they, so that the mainstream news media can't ignore them and needs them as reporters and needs to, that would be the ideal trajectory for the future. I fully concur, Dr. Socolow, and we appreciate your time and your insight today. It was priceless, and it was a very good way for us to kick off this effort. I don't know if you have a closing word Great. Thanks Luc. I hope you have a wonderful day, and I hope to talk to you soon. Have a good one. It was my pleasure, Dr. Socolow. Thank you. Nice to meet you. Bye bye. Nice to meet you, too. Bye bye.
Outro Joe:This episode was brought to you by Zeno's Communications Consulting, LLC, the company that facilitates your engagements with immigrant audiences. Till next time.